It's not the fourth turning (I mean as what the theory describes)… It's more akin to “Mass Formation” as described by our Dr. Robert Malone, because people are willing to accept the unacceptable. Why would any person of Jewish ancestry ever join the Democratic Party? I'm sure Idk but the Theory of “Mass Formation” explains in detail why at least 90% of those people living in NYC who identify as Hebrews do. It's a kind of hypnotic state that is created when ppl are kept apart, isolated, and confused. Then an individual appears who has everything in control (supported by mass media). Now it really doesn't matter if the ppl are young or old, bright or dull… In fact, the more intelligent are more likely to fall into lockstep. Then as the incongruity becomes even more outrageous the more the March is joined. It's actually quite horrific… To add insult to injury the controlling active social actors seldom rise beyond 30% of the population! 😳
A common sense compliment… Noted and thanks. The dark path of “Mass Formation” ultimately leads to a self-destructive toltaltarism until it burns itself out, taking a considerable amount of people down with it. This explains why in 1930 a normal population of very intelligent Germans were made barking mad insane.
I am highly skeptical of the term "intelligent", not in the least because it is often conflated with wisdom which is an entirely different thing. Modern society automatically associates learning or degreed as therefore intelligent. Being able to memorize enough on a subject to pass a final exam does not convey intelligence let alone expertise. More so, it can be detrimental to attaining wisdom as it tends to inspire an "I already know it all" smugness. Especially among the young -- and still very impressionable.
That our education system not only no longer imparts critical thinking skills but instead suppresses them is much to blame. Though deemed necessary as it makes for a so much more easily managed and manipulated populace. Tucker Carlson puts it best, "Shut up, prole!"
Lol ok am using it loosely but when parts of the “Mass Formation” which obviously elucidates how much of this mischief is set in a Petree dish and allowed to percolate and to the mix (as you obviously discovered) a half-baked educational system that picks up on an even less accomplished instrument of conflict (Critical Race “Theory”) and pass it off to kids who, at this point (well they claim graduate school) have not learned to distinguish between a man and a woman… We are going to have problems.
I love the term mass formation, or rather the full term mass formation psychosis. As Dr. Robert Malone first used this (on Joe Rogan) to characterize the nearly total capture of the entire world and literally turn people against their friends, neighbors, co-workers, and even family through a contrived panic. It was the ultimate experiment in global social control which I suspect worked even better than expected. We won't be seeing the last of this tactic.
Feelings are more important than facts, "the science" is more correct than actual science (where nothing is ever "settled"), and gender is whatever zee/zim says it is this week.
Just for the record. Mass Formation is a hypothesis (not really a theory) developed by professor of clinical psychology at Ghent University (Belgium), Mattias Desmet. Dr. Desmet applied his hypothesis to the Covid panic. Dr. Malone discussed same on Rogan's show but he is not the creator of the hypothesis. A small point but credit where credit is due.
But specifically, I was of course referring to pre-nazi Germany which up until the advent of Hitler was a rather healthy Republic, actually you can pin the point to 1929 when they got sucked into Hyperinflation which worked to the NAZI advantage.
It was far from healthy. The hyperinflation was actually in 1923. It wrecked the middle class. What happened in 1929 was the onset of the Great Depression which wrecked the working class and further drove down the middle class. Weimar was also plagued with widespread street fighting from the very beginning to the end and a moral degeneracy that was not exceeded until now. There is always a Hitler out there, it takes Weimar class chaos to empower them.
Hyperinflation became a tool for the globalist/bankers/robber-barons to buy up the most significant portions of Germany's very solid industrial sector. And the labor camps provided them cheap labor for their war products.
Hitler was a useful patsy to this extremely profitable venture.
I can't claim to know a lot about Nazi and pre-Nazi Germany, though one of the facets which always sticks is how many in Germany (as well as the rest of Europe) seemed not to take Hitler seriously until it was too late and he has amassed too much power to challenge. Even for the Jews, who know persecution as no other people have ever known, the reality set in before most could escape. Joe Kennedy and Noel Chamberlin weren't much help either.
Don’t forget great gradpa Bush. Lead investment advisor in the steel industry sector. The same players even the names are the same. “Generations come and generations go... And they have no memory” Yet another reason why history is so vitally important. As this maybe a cross post on cross platforms but if true on one “History helps prevent stupidity.”
All the more reason why history is being taught less and less throughout our educational system. I've heard internet rumors (so they must be true) that American History is no longer a required class for a High School diploma in many areas.
Most of the history which is taught seems to the revisionist version such as the comical, if hateful, complete reimaging of the founding of America, the 1619 Propaganda, er, "Project".
I had also learned fairly recently how IBM aided the Nazis in cataloging their Jewish prisoners. Those tattooed serial numbers corresponded to punch cards in an IBM computer. And wouldn't you know it, they are now trying to do this to the entire world. Beginning with the EU.
Another “Dick Chaney in 9” heels;) Scary a dime a doz, “Just drag a c-note thru a trailer park”... No kidding. Nikki was flat broke in flats till she was elevated to the 9” heel board of Boeing.
Sasha has a blind spot on Israel. It prevents her from seeing that Israel's response to the Oct. 7 attacks is out of all proportion to whatever it was that happened that day.
In fact, the highly disproportionate Israeli response (thousands of dead Palestinians with more every day, including children) raises the question of what Israel is seeking to accomplish.
Because it looks like a desire to kill as many Palestinians as possible in order to drive them out of Gaza.
Pro-Israel pundits remind me of Orwell saying that political speech was largely the defense of the indefensible.
I don't have a blind spot at all. I believe that when Hamas committed those acts of terror beyond anything I've ever heard of in my lifetime, Israel had a right to go to war. But I do see for the first time that both the Left and the Right are the ones that have a blind spot when it comes to antisemitism - which I didn't really see before. I've spent so much of my time defending MAGA and fighting on that side it has taken me by surprise that so many seem to want to defend the idiots chanting in the streets to Free Palestine. That is never going to be my side of things. I see them as delusional brats fighting on the wrong side. I am someone who is pro-Winston Churchill. Pro-beatdowns when it is warranted. I am anti-Hitler and the Nazis flying high on meth and overtaking the world. Not a big fan of concentration camps, dehumanization and starvation.
Hamas doesn't have that kind of power yet but they might. That they were so ugly in their attacks should have awakened the entire world. Instead, we get the thousands year old song about the Jews yet again. I wish for Winston Churchill to come back to life and start teaching people a thing or two about moral clarity.
That's exactly what it is… Should this theory of “Mass Formation” prove to be correct (and I for one believe it is), then we are just in the initial stages and must proceed with the utmost courage to beat this fall of Western civilization back into its place in Hell. Or watch Freedom’s Greatest Hope slip away from the face of the Earth.
"I don't have a blind spot at all. After all, if I had a blind spot, I'd see it, right? I checked twice, even - not a blind spot in sight!"
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
Yeah. I think we all agree killing 10,000 children is atrocious. That is why A Little Diplomacy or a lot. Is very necessary So we can avoid all these children’s deaths. This isn’t anything new. But it seems to be getting more obnoxious.
Are there people out there that would love to use the killing of innocent children for any strange attempt at horror or manipulation.
Yes. Because they are desperate and scared and some are just lazy and stupid.and they think it wins the argument. 10,000 dead children = winning argument.
Why. Because there is no reason for 10,000 dead children dropping like flies these days.
Got it.
When more people than not turn out to be useless pawns. Dime a dozen. Throw out the dead ones and get new ones to annihilate.
That’s how it goes. Everyone is nothing.
In 2023. I really don’t think we should settle for this type of treatment or mindset. Has to be corrected .
Seems backward and barbaric and a bit unnecessary if you ask me.
Could somebody please replace these global stupid drama bitches with competent. Real leaders please.
Oh you mistake the US. Didn't you know? The screeching social justice warriors have overtaken all culture on the Left. Churchill is "problematic" here, as he is in the UK. All should hang their heads in shame. Only an idiot would prefer Hitler to have succeeded.
Libertarian sums up my point. In 1940, Churchill did a magnificent thing that contributed mightily to saving Western civilization. That was his finest hour and that is how we remember him. The Indians and Israelis both fought with him and against him and so have a a more mixed view. The Congress Party and the Irgun didn't stand down during WW2 but would sometimes cooperate on a situational basis. As to Israel, LEHI assassinated one of his closest friends, Lord Moyne, for deep sixing (in an exceptionally offensive way) a plan to rescue the Hungarian Jews. In India, Bose was an outright collaborator but is still regarded as a hero due to his stand against the British with stuff named after him and commemorative stamps. He was a significant enough figure that his museum and family got a visit from the late PM Abe in in 2007. The Irish were never allies and sometimes enemies. He played a significant role in British attempt to crush the Irish independence movement (including organizing the Black and Tans) and the peace talks that brought about the Free State-a role that is still controversial in Ireland.
Believe it is a mistake to take anyone out of their time and situations that they confronted and slap them with our morality which, most definitely would have failed if the situation was reversed. That is if our moral standing, such as it is, questionable at best (and I'm being most generous on this point, not knowing how to define a woman for example, or toxic masculinity, to name just a couple). Could have ever had even the slightest prayer, going against a monster of the likes of Hitler. I think this is Sasha's position here.
And my point is standing up to Hitler wasn't the only thing he did in his very long career at or near the top of British politics. See my response to her about Ireland, Israel and India.
India had been the Jewell in the British Empire… But he did negotiate after the War and just look at his long and distinguished career. And it is not a stretch to say he, with his rousing oratory and pugnacious (courageous) attitude towards Hitler, especially after Dunkirk… Which in and of itself was nothing less than miraculous. They were left with barely an army intact. At Malta (where my great-grandfather was an engineer) they were ordered to fight and hold what was determined to be the linchpin to North Africa, they had only two WWI-era torpedo planes called Swordfish. Britain stood alone against the most fearsome war machine ever constructed. Their darkest hour, as Churchill called it.
Proportionatel would be the IDF raping, beheading, mutilating, killing children in front of their parents, killing parents in front of their children, burning families, putting children in ovens, gouging out eyes, cutting off breasts, sodomizing, laughing, videotaping, etc. The exact same number of Palestinians, as Hamas.
There’s never been a proportionate” war.
That would mean nobody wins, and if you think that the IDF and Hamas are morally equivalent, I’m wasting my time, answering you, which is probably the case.
That is not a statement to be taken in jest... We are, at least, the Boomers certainly are. We know what the world looks from the perspective of unencumbered freedom... Freedom that few upon this planet have ever known. Unfortunately a perspective we may never know again.
Just between me and you, I'm of the darkest opinion bc I've seen how they play us. Not Israel or Hamas but the puppet masters. I think you too may suspect but dare not say because it is too much to get your mind around. I'm just going to say that there are those who “just want to watch it burn”… Back during the Crusades murderous acts were perpetrated just to get war started. The NAZI committed unspeakable crimes… These are the facts as we now know. There were things that just don't fit… something that has become a marker of the present regimen. That is all I have to say at the present moment without evidence. Just saying because I like your style… You got a pair kiddo✌️
Regardless, it is Hamas/Iran that is responsible for Palestinian deaths. That’s how they win minds of the western world. Palestinians are pawns. That is the disgusting truth.
Israel has killed and maimed a far more disproportionate number than Hamas ever did. Please open your eyes to both sides of story. And again, yes kill as many Hamas as you want but cease immediately killing civilians.
You know some of these in the younger generation have an infantile mindset. With their safe spaces, and knowledge of every conceivable pronoun but have not the grounding in history or mathematics (I know that new math is so complicated now no one can do simple problems in their head). But I insists upon everyone learn to use their special pronouns just encourages this insanity. If they were to go up to one of the Hamas leaders and try to teach them that ludicrous transgender enunciation they'd be looking for their head rolling on the ground.
Well said. It’s war and Hamas needs destroyed. Many of the perpetrators on 10/7 were Gaza civilians, not all were Hamas militants, and paid highly by Hamas to carry out and record. When captured their videos were confiscated and they described their actions being orchestrated by Hamas. Gaza/Hamas/Palestinians have been repeatedly offered ceasefires and other offers for peace and have chosen war/hate over peace. They only want to kill Jews, not allow peace. They teach and train their children to hate and are taught how to kill and fake hostages. These are young children being taught this.
Are you 100% certain that the list of atrocities you presented actually occurred? All I have ever seen is talk. I mean, I would not want to see video of that horror, but at the same time, lack of specific proof troubles me. I am not convinced all of that happened, so I am curious how you became so convinced.
btw Your closing salvo, assuming your own moral superiority, is pretty disgusting. You should really check that.
I know countless Israeli’s, relatives of Israelis and know the truth.
You accuse victims of fabrication?
It reminds me of when someone says something in the immediate answer is, “what is your source”. Your unwillingness to look at it, which I understand, gives you no knowledge.
Watch the footage you avoid.
And ask yourself why you choose to not want to believe it. I don’t want to believe it. I wish it never happened.
It’s unbelievable, but it happened.
Hamas says they will do it over and over again until they’re done. Do you not believe that either?
I’ve been avoiding this kind of conversation because it’s so outrageous.
You think I’m disgusting for an implication that you assume.
I spend way too much time on twitter, and I haven't seen any video depicting the barbarism. I did see people fleeing the parking lot, the paragliders on motorcycles, stuff like that. And I saw the very awful image of the dead german girl in the back of the truck. But that is about it.
I'm not claiming that you're wrong, or that you're lying. Not at all.
But I know that we get lied to a very awful lot by the media. And I'll be damned if I'll get sucked into the opinion maelstrom without being satisfied about the credibility of the info I am getting.
Plus, you misunderstood me, I'm not *avoiding* looking at the footage. I'm not clamoring to witness it, either, but it seems like at least some of that video would have shown up on twitter, they get everything else.
Why did the vaunted IDF fail their border security for hours on end?
Dude. We would probably agree on most things. Can you please try to provide any substantial comment other than this low-IQ insult thing that you seem trapped within?
First, it was ISIS and not Hamas who allegedly beheaded Pearl and Foley. Second, there seems to be some credible evidence that ISIS is a creation of the Mossad and the CIA. And finally, there have been some questions as to whether or not these beheadings actually happened, especially in regards to Foley. His siblings certainly didn't seem too disturbed, assuming, of course, that the people in the interview really were his siblings.
hamas were filming it live on go pro cameras, and also on the cell phones of the people they were murdering. they were proud and sharing it with the world. It's so absurd this level of denial.
BTW, Benj, if Israel is genocidal, as many say, believe, accuse, etc, they could drop one bomb and kill everyone in Gaza., rather than send in ground troops risking their lives. (They are very bad at genocide.)
Instead, they try to save as many civilians as possible. And they want to get the hostages back, of course.
I’m old enough to remember when Iran was holding Americans hostage in the 70’s and every single day for over a year, the main stream media said “day, one day two, day three, day 300... that the hostages were being held. Now nobody seems to care about the Americans being held hostage. They’re not all Israeli’s. Maybe too many Jews for peoples comfort level--21% of Israelis are Arabs.
Hamas killed indiscriminately.
I also know parents of young men who went to Israel to help, joining the IDF as “lone soldiers” and volunteers cooking and bringing supplies l, Israelis snd Americans. They needed medical supplies desperately in the beginning bc a facility was burnt to the ground with medical supplies.
It’s very difficult to ID bodies of people that are burned alive and cut up also. That painstaking horrifying job is done by other human beings.
It’s traumatic for everyone.
On 10/8 the anti-Israel people were already blaming Israel before they responded at all.
Just curious: when you speak on the topic, do you even hear yourself?
Does the fact that you justify violence, in ANY form, arouse or alert you?
Your type is so radicalized that you think those who maintain a neutral position and conviction of opposing ALL violence, regardless of its origins, 'deniers' and foes.
Up until a month ago, nearly every Conservative maintained an anti-war, America-First position, where they vehrently argued against financial and military aid to Ukraine, and demanded America-First policies and governing.
Literally overnight, many of them became staunch supporters of foreign aid to Israel, regardless of amount, military support, regardless of lives lost, and justification for genocide under the guise of 'defense'... despite their supposed pro-life stances and activism.
I bet you were one of them.
Does that contradiction and double standard not bother you?
Frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on against those who are at least maintaining principles and convictions.... And I wonder if you've ever considered why you're so staunchly pro-Israel.
Israel is God’s sifting tool. The hearts and minds of every person is being exposed. I’m glad that Sasha has that sense that this cause of Israel’s response is rational. Benji asking if the atrocities really happened are just another swipe @ the delegitimization of Israel. Personally the dismay @ Israel’s response is just thinly veiled antisemitism, which in my opinion is the hatred of God, and that which He loves.
From the other side of the world, it looks like Israelis are going in on foot because the tunnels under Gaza cant be bombed from above, and need closer attention. Nothing to do with being humane to civilians.
Yup maybe, and if that offends you too bad. Israel’s enemies are going to pay for what they did. Unfortunately since Hamas uses human shields so will Gaza civilians. Strange how all the people shrieking about Gaza civilians??? What about the 1/2 million dead people in Syria’s civil war (of which 5,000 are said to be Palestinians), the 9,000 civilians in the war between Saudi Arabia and the Houthis in Yemen, of which 40% are estimated to be children, or the countless human rights violations committed in Arab/Islamic countries? If the civilians in Gaza are paramount to the world why didn’t their Arab brethren open up their borders? Because they are determined to use them as a propaganda prop. Give me a break already!
By the same token, can we say that the "thousands of Palestinians killed by indiscriminate Israeli bombing" occurred?
We DO know that Hamas accused Israel of bombing a hospital. And the media ran with that for days, arousing great anger at Israel. And then it found out it was not the hospital, it was a parking lot, and the rocket likely came from Hamas itself.
We also know Hamas hides in hospitals and schools deliberately trying to get civilians killed for propaganda purposes.
It's true. We don't know what happened - and I sure as hell am not claiming to know.
You know who are the scariest people of them all? The CONVINCED.
In this age of lies, and wars based on lies, and fat cats getting fatter from wars based on lies - anyone who has abandoned their skepticism, who believes completely on one side of the other... it truly is IDEOLOGY that we're up against.
The media lies, the governments lie.
This could really be about Israel vs Hamas. Maybe that's actually what happened, 7-hours-border-defense-lapse notwithstanding.
Or the battle MIGHT be MIC/globalists against ALL OF US.
Hamas was created by Israel to divide support for the PLO.
Divide and conquer.
Look how cleverly they've got us divided now!
Sasha Stone has been nothing but awesome: "truth warriors unite!" Until now. Now she's inexplicably gone full ideologue, and has become unreasonable (I.e., cannot be reasoned with), calcified starkly into severe ideological-parameter thinking and pronouncement. And I, the unconvinced, am the enemy - of that, she is convinced.
They have split us.
They did it. It worked. Now we are perceiving each other as not allies. And that is a win for Gates, Schwab, etc.
Unfortunately, Benj, there is footage of it. Was I there? Of course not. But it’s pretty hard to deny it happened when they filmed it. It may not be on Twitter, or MSM, but it is there on the dark web.
Let me guess....you totally bought the story that an Israeli rocket hit the Gaza hospital and killed 500 people? Without a shred of proof, based on Hamas' word alone? All of which has now been completely disproven.
It's those elusive shreds of proof that are making me question ALL of it.
What shred of proof do you have that this was not a total LIHOP? That the entire IDF was busy over at the West Bank, sorry folks, too busy over here to guard the Gaza border!
Listen up, media consumer: You NEED some people around you QUESTIONING stuff while you go barreling ahead with your mind made up about some bullshit that MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE (but will be used to start WWIII, just like EVERY OTHER LIE that started EVERY OTHER WAR).
THEY LIED BEFORE but they're not lying this time, right? Everything you think you know, is 100% true, is it?
OK then, WWIII let's go because TiaH already knows all there is to know and all that's left is the fighting.
Congress has seen videos of what occurred in Israel on October 7 and they were shocked and sickened regarding what Hamas did. It’s a war and Israel is right to defend itself and destroy Hamas.
Hey Donna, fair point. Also, please consider this trick when looking at comments; change “Israel” to “Palestine” or “Jew” to “Arab” (or vice versa) and see if it doesn’t accurately represent the other side. Eg here is your posted w replacements. “I’m always skeptical, but Mossad has a history of doing horrible things when they attack and they want Palestinians dead.” Accurate no? We need a way out of this without killing thousands more on both sides.
Many of the estimated 1,200 people who died on Oct. 7 were apparently killed by Israeli forces.
Something like 10,000 Gazans, many children, have died so far and the number keeps rising.
So just by numbers Israel is responsible for far more deaths than Hamas. That's difficult to square with the subtext of many comments, which is that Israelis are civilized and Palestinians are savages.
Israel has the power to wipe Gaza from the map. The fact that they don't indicates they don't want to. They give every opportunity to Palestinians to get out of the line of fire before they attack. They try to get supplies to the hospital and to help Gazans. Palestinians are imprisoned by Hamas.
On the other hand we can tell by Hamas actions that were the shoe on the other foot they would kill every Jew possible bar none, as seen on Oct 7. And with their indiscriminate rocket fire. That's why Israelis are civilized and Hamas are barbarians.
I have a close colleague who is an Egyptian Christian. In fact, I got him the job. His family left Egypt because it wasn’t good for Christians in Egypt anymore.
My ex-husband was very good friends with a Jordanian, whose father decided they were “Palestinians”. He hated Jews. But his son didn’t.
I’ve had students who are Syrian refugees, who would have preferred to stay in Syria.
Have you noticed Jordan and Egypt do not take any Palestinian refugees? They didn’t right from the start. Nor will any other surrounding country.
I actually know many people from the Middle East that come to America for various reasons.
That is called war. I think too many men play computer war and have limited connection with reality. I haven't read anyone here calling the Gazans savages, but Hamas is barbaric. Did you expect the IDF to reach a number goal of dead Gazans to match the tortured and murdered Israelis and then call a ceasefire?
Sasha is right on this one, both in her opinion and in posting divergent views anyway. What is happening in Gaza is tragic, and I can understand people wanting it to stop, as I do, but why doesn’t the world demand that Hamas come out from their tunnels underneath hospitals and schools and civilian infracture and surrender and stop the war crime of hiding behind women and children? The question is does Israel have the right to defend its citizens against an implacable enemy who has the support of powerful regional allies and has sworn they will do another slaughter again and again,) or does hiding your HQ and weapons and rockets behind your civilians mean you get to win? Should that be a war strategy for all armies, or just those fighting Israelis?
As for Israelis’ actually wanting to kill as many civilians as possible?—it goes against all the evidence that any fair minded person can observe.
Hamas supporters proclaimed glory to their martyrs of the resistance. They even projected the words on university buildings. Hamas leaders living comfortably in Qatar assure us that this is only the beginning of their resistance. It seems only Western apologists are casting doubt. The perpetrators themselves are taking credit.
No it's not. They were attacked in barbaric fashion so they have to eliminate the threat. That's how any State would respond. Acting as if they are supposed to count up the dead and say 'ok let's now kill that many Palestinians' is perverse and not serious.
The Germans killed about 40,000 British civilians with their bombing and another 10,000 with the V-weapons. Some was collateral damage and some was deliberate terror bombing to try to crack civilian morale. The Allied combined bomber offensive killed about 435,000 Germans (plus substantial numbers of French and Belgians). The American portion of this was largely collateral damage due to the huge overestimate of the accuracy of the bombing. The British portion was mostly explicit terror bombing to crack civilian morale and disrupt the work force.
Obviously the Allies didn't stop when they had killed 50,000 civilians. They were trying to win the war. The question of proportionality is the relationship between the ends desired and the means employed, not a comparative body count. This is what international law actually says about proportionality. The air war obviously contributed to winning the war both in terms of damaged production and resources diverted from the ground war. The question of whether it contributed enough to justify the casualties is still controversial.
Applying this to the current war, the question needs to be is the goal of eliminating Hamas and the likelihood of doing so worth the casualties. It is not comparative body counts.
John you have your head in the sand. Bari Weiss of the free press just gave a speech to the federalist society and if you look you will find it. She nailed it and if your not of the same mind set you have just put yourself into the same camp of the everyday German in the 1930-1940’s that accepted and even cheered Adolf on.
They're only revealing themselves as the unprincipled and unconvicted hacks and mindless zombies they've always been.
They just better-hid it before because issues didn't involve their precious Israel.
Hopefully it's just a matter of time before they come to their senses and realize they've been carefully conditioned to love their enemies and oppressors -- or how they've seemingly double standards about foreign aid, America First policies, and unnecessary death of innocents amidst their supposed pro-life activism.
If not, well, no love lost -- I don't care much for people who lack self-awareness to understand how their emotions are being used against them, especially after they've spent 7 years criticizing the other side of falling victim to the same.
It seems like common sense that in 2023, given all the media manipulation of facts and information surrounding some of the biggest events in modern time that we've witnessed and experienced -- the literal rewriting of history in present real-time -- that this isn't a new phenomenon.
We're supposed to believe that it's easier to fool an entire international populous in an age of technology, more so than it was during a time of limited print, radio, and television reporting?
I know letting go of long-held beliefs proves difficult and burdensome to most... But, again, given everything we've witnessed the past decade, it shouldn't be deemed improbable, but extremely likely.
It goes without saying, if more understood their history, they wouldn't be tirelessly involving themselves in this hyper-polarized event.
Those Palestinian deaths are entirely blood on Hamas' hands, not Israel's. Hamas INTENTIONALLY and purposefully uses its citizens as human shields and uses the deaths of its citizens to boost it's anti-Israel propaganda. The more dead Palestinians, the better is their motto. "Whatever it was that happened that day" tells me all I need to know about your desire to find out the truth of what actually did happen that day. Liberals bury their heads in the sand about anything that doesn't fit their narrative and then scream about the inequity of it all. Give me freakin' break!
It could end tomorrow if the Hamas members would surrender and face justice for their war crimes. As an FYI, Israel killing civilians is not necessarily a war crime. Even if children are killed, it is not a war crime unless there was no military target that was being attacked at the time. So if Israel parachuted into a Palestinian concert where there were no fighters and killed the people and children and left, that would be a war crime. Accidents in the prosecution of legitimate targets are not war crimes. If they were, then our government was guilty of a war crime when they bombed the guy in Afghanistan who was ferrying water. War is ugly and should be avoided because ugly things are very common, and in fact the point of war. Since warfare is conducted by humans against humans, there will always be accidents.
It's not about Israel. I'm anti war. BUT when it comes to raping women, dragging them thru streets, cutting babies out of women & laughing about it, putting babies in ovens, there's a difference. It’s up there w Manson murders. If you are not Muslim, then you're at war whether you like it or not. It's Islam stupid.
Bernie Sanders is on record accusing Netanyahu's government of indiscriminate bombings of refugee camps, hospitals and even ambulances. Amnesty International has similar witness reports, and Dr Norman Finkelstein called such actions crimes against humanity.
(Sanders on YouTube channel Middle East Eye: "Stop the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people.")
In response to a Glenn Greenwald request for feedback, I wrote the comment below. Thank you Sasha for your Substack.
@ggreenwald
Your analysis of the geopolitical forces at play in US and international events and crises is masterful. However, I sense a double standard applies to some of the moral / ethical questions underlying these events and crises. You rightly expose and emphasise, for example, US government lies and deceit surrounding episodes such as those involving Edward Snowden or the Twitter Files. As well as neocon corruption surrounding continued US military assistance to Ukraine, absent compassion for the useless loss of life for no strategic gain. In contrast, I wonder what ethical and moral standards would you assign to the deliberate Hamas slaughter of women, children and babies? How should this figure into the geopolitical calculus of Israels response in terms of the nature of the enemy they confront? How does a civilised state confront and deal with jihadist terrorists screaming "Allahu Akbar" as they butcher civilians and call on Gods help to eradicate Israel?
I’ve not heard Glenn praising Hamas, but I have heard him condemn their brutality in the most unequivocal terms.
On the other hand, what I have heard Glenn talk a lot about are two issues; 1) the nature and intensity of the IDF response and the effect it is having on the civilian population of Gaza, and 2) the need to understand the “Palestinian question” vis a vis its genesis and the necessity of finding a lasting solution that addressed the needs of both sides.
I don’t see any moral ambivalence in condemning Hamas while at the same time lamenting the loss of innocent lives and understanding the need for a realistic solution that addresses the needs of both sides.
Thanks JT, I agree with your assessment re Glenn's comments. However, I sense Glenn has a moral blind spot in terms of how Israel deals with Hamas, a terrorist Jihadist group who's objective is the extermination of Jews and the destruction of Israel. Hamas indiscriminately fires rockets into Israel to inflict whatever damage it can. It conducts mindless atrocities on defenceless civilians. How could Israel find a lasting solution that addresses the needs of Hamas?
I'm still unclear about what exactly happened on Oct 7th. How are you so clear? We know there were atrocities committed by the invading forces. There were approximately 1200-1400 people killed, including IDF soldiers. But there are also Israeli witnesses who claim the IDF killed its own people. What is certain is that in Gaza, tens of thousands of innocent, helpless people, including THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, are being bombed by Israel using our money.
Why do so many American cheerleaders for this bombing campaign expect people like me to focus on the tragic but unclear incident that happened on Oct 7th, and ignore the outright genocide happening in Gaza as we speak? I'm blown away by the gall of that expectation or insistence. I'm insulted by it. I'm deeply troubled by it.
I agree. And there’s hardly any mention of the atrocious crimes the IDF has committed against Palestinians the past 20 years. Not giving Hamas a pass at all, they’re terrorists for sure, but this didn’t start on 10/7.
How can you be so certain about what is happening in Gaza? I've heard it's still very unclear and there's a film studio where Hamas propaganda films are being made and the IDF isn't even in Gaza.
Thing is, you have reiterated the "atrocity porn" that we have all heard about via mainscream media, and it seems to be the basis for your strong opinions.
Yet they lie about shit like this all the time. Remember at the beginning of the Ukraine conflict, the TV showed us a child's stuffed animal with blood on it. My physician friend called me on the phone, distressed and upset about it: "they showed the child's toy with blood on it", and I said, "yes, they *showed* you that - they showed you what they want you to see." She stopped crying.
They lied about Iraq, Vietnam, Ukraine etc.
Can we be discerning about whether we are being lied to about Israel?
I read that 4 out of 5 Israelis think the net & yahoo adminstration knowingly did not prevent or intercept the 10/7 invasion. Some reports even suggest that IDF was involved in the attack.
Cui bono - who benefits from the benefit of the doubt?
Everybody seems so sure that they know exactly what happened on October 7 and what has been happening since. However, all we are seeing is propaganda from both sides. People shouldn't be so sure of themselves.
I get tired of the war hawks that seek to involve our young adults in endless and morally murky wars that we never voted for. Lots of propaganda on both sides of the equation, with lots of dead civilians caught in the middle.
Sasha, I agree with you 100%. I don’t think the US should involve itself and I feel badly for innocents on in both the Israeli & Gaza side. But I can’t help but feel like anti Semitism motivates a lot if the criticism against Israel’s response. They’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
I’m hardly a PC warrior. I personally observed people cheering the rapes and murders before the Israeli government launched its attack. It’s not the Israeli government they hate, nor is it the religion they hate-- it’s the Jewish people themselves.
Jay, where were you when you observed these people cheering? Where were those who cheered? Did you observe them in real life, or from a media source? How many do you estimate that you witnessed cheering?
I didn't see any of that so I am interested in how you became so convinced.
to me October 7th seems quite suspicious, a possible Israeli false flag. How did the supposedly state of the art Israeli border security systems fail so massively? problem, reaction, solution anyone? Why did it take so many hours for the IDF to come to the scene of the massacre? very weird indeed..........
Check my post right below here from Quillette about how Israeli troops had been redeployed to the West Bank to help Israeli settlers take Palestinian land.
It does seem that all the troops had been removed from the border but probably not just on that particular day. A good Quillette article about Gaza which says Israelis on the border were warned by friends in Gaza that an attack was coming. They contacted the IDF about this and were told not to worry about it. This though is something to consider for those who say the Palestinians are terrorists and need to be destroyed.
“Israelis in the border Kibbutzim received messages from acquaintances in Gaza that an attack was imminent and asked the IDF for advice. The IDF responded with reassuring messages and told them not to cancel any planned events (including the music festival mentioned above). The IDF chief of staff Herzi Halevy and the head of Shin Bet both warned Hamas against any action, apparently on the basis of existing intelligence. Furthermore, it now transpires that the Israeli leadership received unambiguous—though not specific—warnings from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the US regarding preparations by Hamas to launch a massive attack.”
Does that justify Israel destroying Gaza? Much of the world considers this genocide. Many believe it doesn’t matter what much of the world thinks but it most surely does.
Yes. The "Gazans", aka Hamas constituents, have stated that they are proud of what they did on 10/7 and that they will continue until all the Jewish people are dead.... then they come for the "Great Satan", America. That is their stated goal..... that is why they need to be completely eradicated.
Seva, I usually read your comments and agree with much. I am super disappointed.
Dresden shouldn’t have happened but at that time much of the world deeply hated Germany and had no sympathy for the civilians killed there. Big difference now when much of the world hates Israel and considers this genocide.
Candace's wanting to keep the United States out of yet another foreign war is absolutely spot-on. One can be pained by the Hamas terrorist attacks and the loss of innocent Israeli lives, and one can hope that Israel destroys Hamas (which Israel funded. See https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4295880-israels-chickens-come-home-to-roost/) without wanting the United States involved on either side. One can do this while also lamenting civilian Palestinian casualties and the treatment of Palestinians before this recent war. One can lament those casualties and the treatment of Palestinians without pushing for the eradication of Israel, too. One can support Israel's right of self-defense while also being angered by AIPAC's inordinate influence on the United States Congress. Amazing, I know. But it's all true.
She's pretending that's her take but it isn't. Not if you follow her on Twitter, she is no different from the Harvard brats when it comes to this topic. She's pivoting now to pretend it's about America first, it might work on those who do t know her. But not me. I have been following her insanity for weeks now.
What do you suppose is her true motive, then, as she's been a vocal Zionist for as long as she's been in the public spotlight, and your takeaway doesn't seem to accurately reflect her long-held position.
Is it really beyond the realm of possibility that, even given her pro-Israel stance, she's critical of the recent event, for good reason?
I think you've become so radicalized and passionate about this controversial topic that you can't, and won't, even see the forest through the trees.
Why would you not want to put this in your substack? Candance explained herself very well. She’s definitely pro-Israel but saddened to see children, any child, killed even when Hamas uses as a shield. This interview made me like her even more and I already admired her candor, her opinions, her truthfulness, and her determination.
I’ve only watched a quarter of it so far but I see nothing wrong with what she’s saying. She says she’s basically America first as are Tucker, Trump, Vivek and Glenn Greenwald. I see nothing terrible about that.
I was surprised at the comments Candace has made, especially since Ben has been so affected and they are suppose to be friends. Her comments have actually made me think less of her. I think Ben’s comments on her post go way deeper than what was said on X.
wow, how in the world can you come away with that when all she did was in all graciousness deflect from Ben and compliment what he has built? I thought she was more than gracious with her comments.
I think it is very difficult for many to separate emotional attachment to Israel from objective critical thinking. That’s understandable: I had a hard time thinking of the IRA as terrorists when M16 and Brit paras were doing their killing.
So point to one thing in this interview that would be controversial in a sane world?
I don't always agree with Candace Owens, but she has been consistent and so have I. If children are valuable and have a right to life, then *all* children are valuable and have a right to life. Hamas has no right to take the life of innocent Israeli children, and the Israeli government has no right to take the lives of innocent Palestinian children. It doesn't matter who is hiding behind them. *We don't kill children.* And any group that's willing to drop bombs on areas where they know there are children is no better than the person that would shot a child in its bed or put it in the oven (if that even happened--it sounds a lot like the "beheading babies" story, so I'm going to remain dubious unless it comes from an unassailable source).
If it's America first and you are of the opinion that we need to focus on our own problems, then that is true when it involves Ukraine, it's true when it involves China, and it is *just as true* when it involves Israel. We can feel for them and still say we're not going to fund your war, especially if you're going to bomb children.
Finally, I find the strangest twist of this whole thing, which I wish were a surprise to me, but it's not, the idea that people who don't trust this government to tell the truth (and you shouldn't), don't trust Hamas to tell the truth (why would you? They're terrorists.), and don't trust Palestinians, even those who aren't part of Hamas, to tell the truth will look at you and say you absolutely must take as gospel every world out of the Israeli government's mouth. What the ever loving . . . the Israeli government is made up of human beings just like any government. That means their willingness to lie knows no bounds. Their willingness to betray their own people knows no bounds. Why suddenly do some people forget that?
Dude! (in Chris Farley voice:) Remember that time when that girl spoke in front of US Congress about the incineration of babies in Iraq (or something atrocious like that) - and then it turns out, she was lying, she was revealed to be the daughter of a diplomat or something, and the lies were told to manufacture consent for our invasion of Iraq?
I'm glad if you do. Because apparently Sasha Stone can't remember, and precious few others in this wild comments thread can remember, either.
Terrorism is Terrorism. No matter who does it. Please look into how Sharon and Netanyahu helped build Hammas to weaken the PLO and Yassar Arafat. It all has its roots in British intelligence operations to keep wars going in the region to benefit the controllers of the oil.
Trump's Abraham Accords are the method needed now to corral the unleashed insanity on both sides.
Bingo. Not enough people here, including Sasha, are looking into the history leading up to this latest conflict. As I said in a comment above, this “war” didn’t start on 10/7.
There is a difference between purposely going after innocent people, babies and burning and beheading them. That is HAMAS. Israelis attack sites the terrorists use as human shields and prevent their own people and children from leaving under a warning first given and time is allotted for innocents to leave. They don't. So blame the Hamas terrorists, NOT the Israelis and call this what it is. It is total BS from people who dont even know the history there. War is hell, and Israel did not start it. The Phillistines have been warring with israel in Judea since the beginning of history. Judea is land of the Jews. Arabs want to wipe them off the face of the earth. They have no regard for life whatsoever, unlike the Israelis who give time and notice to evacuate.
TItus, I have heard that argument and I agree that Hammas, which Netanyahu helped to become powerful to undermine the PLO and Yassar Arafat, should be destroyed. The government of Netanyahu's coalition is no more incapable of lies than any other, so be careful of what you wish for. His argument could be used to say " since Hammas is underground in tunnels, anyone living on the surface is a human shield to keep Israel from bombing the tunnels - which can't be reached by the bombs (unless they are nuclear). Anyway you get the gist of my thinking.
Ultimately it is only the economic development of the whole region, emphatically including the Palestinians in a 2 state solution, that can solve the problem. Trump had the Arab nations moving in that direction with the help of his son-in-law Jerad Kushner. And BIbi was very reluctantly going along as well. We, the United States, can be the arbiter. It's called leadership, of which the collective in the White House know nothing.
It's not the fourth turning (I mean as what the theory describes)… It's more akin to “Mass Formation” as described by our Dr. Robert Malone, because people are willing to accept the unacceptable. Why would any person of Jewish ancestry ever join the Democratic Party? I'm sure Idk but the Theory of “Mass Formation” explains in detail why at least 90% of those people living in NYC who identify as Hebrews do. It's a kind of hypnotic state that is created when ppl are kept apart, isolated, and confused. Then an individual appears who has everything in control (supported by mass media). Now it really doesn't matter if the ppl are young or old, bright or dull… In fact, the more intelligent are more likely to fall into lockstep. Then as the incongruity becomes even more outrageous the more the March is joined. It's actually quite horrific… To add insult to injury the controlling active social actors seldom rise beyond 30% of the population! 😳
Very astute observation.
A common sense compliment… Noted and thanks. The dark path of “Mass Formation” ultimately leads to a self-destructive toltaltarism until it burns itself out, taking a considerable amount of people down with it. This explains why in 1930 a normal population of very intelligent Germans were made barking mad insane.
I am highly skeptical of the term "intelligent", not in the least because it is often conflated with wisdom which is an entirely different thing. Modern society automatically associates learning or degreed as therefore intelligent. Being able to memorize enough on a subject to pass a final exam does not convey intelligence let alone expertise. More so, it can be detrimental to attaining wisdom as it tends to inspire an "I already know it all" smugness. Especially among the young -- and still very impressionable.
That our education system not only no longer imparts critical thinking skills but instead suppresses them is much to blame. Though deemed necessary as it makes for a so much more easily managed and manipulated populace. Tucker Carlson puts it best, "Shut up, prole!"
Lol ok am using it loosely but when parts of the “Mass Formation” which obviously elucidates how much of this mischief is set in a Petree dish and allowed to percolate and to the mix (as you obviously discovered) a half-baked educational system that picks up on an even less accomplished instrument of conflict (Critical Race “Theory”) and pass it off to kids who, at this point (well they claim graduate school) have not learned to distinguish between a man and a woman… We are going to have problems.
I love the term mass formation, or rather the full term mass formation psychosis. As Dr. Robert Malone first used this (on Joe Rogan) to characterize the nearly total capture of the entire world and literally turn people against their friends, neighbors, co-workers, and even family through a contrived panic. It was the ultimate experiment in global social control which I suspect worked even better than expected. We won't be seeing the last of this tactic.
Feelings are more important than facts, "the science" is more correct than actual science (where nothing is ever "settled"), and gender is whatever zee/zim says it is this week.
Welcome to the upside down.
Just for the record. Mass Formation is a hypothesis (not really a theory) developed by professor of clinical psychology at Ghent University (Belgium), Mattias Desmet. Dr. Desmet applied his hypothesis to the Covid panic. Dr. Malone discussed same on Rogan's show but he is not the creator of the hypothesis. A small point but credit where credit is due.
But specifically, I was of course referring to pre-nazi Germany which up until the advent of Hitler was a rather healthy Republic, actually you can pin the point to 1929 when they got sucked into Hyperinflation which worked to the NAZI advantage.
It was far from healthy. The hyperinflation was actually in 1923. It wrecked the middle class. What happened in 1929 was the onset of the Great Depression which wrecked the working class and further drove down the middle class. Weimar was also plagued with widespread street fighting from the very beginning to the end and a moral degeneracy that was not exceeded until now. There is always a Hitler out there, it takes Weimar class chaos to empower them.
You’re correct, ty
Hyperinflation became a tool for the globalist/bankers/robber-barons to buy up the most significant portions of Germany's very solid industrial sector. And the labor camps provided them cheap labor for their war products.
Hitler was a useful patsy to this extremely profitable venture.
Who won WWII? The bankers, of course.
Nobody beats the house.
I can't claim to know a lot about Nazi and pre-Nazi Germany, though one of the facets which always sticks is how many in Germany (as well as the rest of Europe) seemed not to take Hitler seriously until it was too late and he has amassed too much power to challenge. Even for the Jews, who know persecution as no other people have ever known, the reality set in before most could escape. Joe Kennedy and Noel Chamberlin weren't much help either.
Don’t forget great gradpa Bush. Lead investment advisor in the steel industry sector. The same players even the names are the same. “Generations come and generations go... And they have no memory” Yet another reason why history is so vitally important. As this maybe a cross post on cross platforms but if true on one “History helps prevent stupidity.”
All the more reason why history is being taught less and less throughout our educational system. I've heard internet rumors (so they must be true) that American History is no longer a required class for a High School diploma in many areas.
Most of the history which is taught seems to the revisionist version such as the comical, if hateful, complete reimaging of the founding of America, the 1619 Propaganda, er, "Project".
I had also learned fairly recently how IBM aided the Nazis in cataloging their Jewish prisoners. Those tattooed serial numbers corresponded to punch cards in an IBM computer. And wouldn't you know it, they are now trying to do this to the entire world. Beginning with the EU.
Another “Dick Chaney in 9” heels;) Scary a dime a doz, “Just drag a c-note thru a trailer park”... No kidding. Nikki was flat broke in flats till she was elevated to the 9” heel board of Boeing.
Fantastic article written by a self-professed Jewish Democrat, author/play write. But now, he’s claimed, he’s leaving the Dem party.
https://unherd.com/2023/10/how-the-democrats-betrayed-the-jews/
Sasha has a blind spot on Israel. It prevents her from seeing that Israel's response to the Oct. 7 attacks is out of all proportion to whatever it was that happened that day.
In fact, the highly disproportionate Israeli response (thousands of dead Palestinians with more every day, including children) raises the question of what Israel is seeking to accomplish.
Because it looks like a desire to kill as many Palestinians as possible in order to drive them out of Gaza.
Pro-Israel pundits remind me of Orwell saying that political speech was largely the defense of the indefensible.
I don't have a blind spot at all. I believe that when Hamas committed those acts of terror beyond anything I've ever heard of in my lifetime, Israel had a right to go to war. But I do see for the first time that both the Left and the Right are the ones that have a blind spot when it comes to antisemitism - which I didn't really see before. I've spent so much of my time defending MAGA and fighting on that side it has taken me by surprise that so many seem to want to defend the idiots chanting in the streets to Free Palestine. That is never going to be my side of things. I see them as delusional brats fighting on the wrong side. I am someone who is pro-Winston Churchill. Pro-beatdowns when it is warranted. I am anti-Hitler and the Nazis flying high on meth and overtaking the world. Not a big fan of concentration camps, dehumanization and starvation.
Hamas doesn't have that kind of power yet but they might. That they were so ugly in their attacks should have awakened the entire world. Instead, we get the thousands year old song about the Jews yet again. I wish for Winston Churchill to come back to life and start teaching people a thing or two about moral clarity.
Hamas is an arm of Iran. Not the only one.
“Death to Israel. Death to America!”
Antisemitism is the default position. Then the rest of the infidels.
People simply hate Jews enough to be blind to reality. Kinda like TDS.
Mass formation psychosis.
That's exactly what it is… Should this theory of “Mass Formation” prove to be correct (and I for one believe it is), then we are just in the initial stages and must proceed with the utmost courage to beat this fall of Western civilization back into its place in Hell. Or watch Freedom’s Greatest Hope slip away from the face of the Earth.
"I don't have a blind spot at all. After all, if I had a blind spot, I'd see it, right? I checked twice, even - not a blind spot in sight!"
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
WHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSEWHAT HAPPENED TO THE BORDER DEFENSE
Sorry, Israel killing 10,000 children is not war or moral.
Yeah. I think we all agree killing 10,000 children is atrocious. That is why A Little Diplomacy or a lot. Is very necessary So we can avoid all these children’s deaths. This isn’t anything new. But it seems to be getting more obnoxious.
Are there people out there that would love to use the killing of innocent children for any strange attempt at horror or manipulation.
Yes. Because they are desperate and scared and some are just lazy and stupid.and they think it wins the argument. 10,000 dead children = winning argument.
Why. Because there is no reason for 10,000 dead children dropping like flies these days.
Got it.
When more people than not turn out to be useless pawns. Dime a dozen. Throw out the dead ones and get new ones to annihilate.
That’s how it goes. Everyone is nothing.
In 2023. I really don’t think we should settle for this type of treatment or mindset. Has to be corrected .
Seems backward and barbaric and a bit unnecessary if you ask me.
Could somebody please replace these global stupid drama bitches with competent. Real leaders please.
Maybe the chanting is for peace.
The Indians, Irish, and Israelis have a far different view of Churchill than is common in the US.
Oh you mistake the US. Didn't you know? The screeching social justice warriors have overtaken all culture on the Left. Churchill is "problematic" here, as he is in the UK. All should hang their heads in shame. Only an idiot would prefer Hitler to have succeeded.
Libertarian sums up my point. In 1940, Churchill did a magnificent thing that contributed mightily to saving Western civilization. That was his finest hour and that is how we remember him. The Indians and Israelis both fought with him and against him and so have a a more mixed view. The Congress Party and the Irgun didn't stand down during WW2 but would sometimes cooperate on a situational basis. As to Israel, LEHI assassinated one of his closest friends, Lord Moyne, for deep sixing (in an exceptionally offensive way) a plan to rescue the Hungarian Jews. In India, Bose was an outright collaborator but is still regarded as a hero due to his stand against the British with stuff named after him and commemorative stamps. He was a significant enough figure that his museum and family got a visit from the late PM Abe in in 2007. The Irish were never allies and sometimes enemies. He played a significant role in British attempt to crush the Irish independence movement (including organizing the Black and Tans) and the peace talks that brought about the Free State-a role that is still controversial in Ireland.
Love your deep and broad understanding of history.
His argument was Churchill vis-a-vis Indians, Irish, Israelis; not Nazis. I think the point being that even our heroes had their significance faults.
Believe it is a mistake to take anyone out of their time and situations that they confronted and slap them with our morality which, most definitely would have failed if the situation was reversed. That is if our moral standing, such as it is, questionable at best (and I'm being most generous on this point, not knowing how to define a woman for example, or toxic masculinity, to name just a couple). Could have ever had even the slightest prayer, going against a monster of the likes of Hitler. I think this is Sasha's position here.
And my point is standing up to Hitler wasn't the only thing he did in his very long career at or near the top of British politics. See my response to her about Ireland, Israel and India.
India had been the Jewell in the British Empire… But he did negotiate after the War and just look at his long and distinguished career. And it is not a stretch to say he, with his rousing oratory and pugnacious (courageous) attitude towards Hitler, especially after Dunkirk… Which in and of itself was nothing less than miraculous. They were left with barely an army intact. At Malta (where my great-grandfather was an engineer) they were ordered to fight and hold what was determined to be the linchpin to North Africa, they had only two WWI-era torpedo planes called Swordfish. Britain stood alone against the most fearsome war machine ever constructed. Their darkest hour, as Churchill called it.
John,
Proportionatel would be the IDF raping, beheading, mutilating, killing children in front of their parents, killing parents in front of their children, burning families, putting children in ovens, gouging out eyes, cutting off breasts, sodomizing, laughing, videotaping, etc. The exact same number of Palestinians, as Hamas.
There’s never been a proportionate” war.
That would mean nobody wins, and if you think that the IDF and Hamas are morally equivalent, I’m wasting my time, answering you, which is probably the case.
THANK YOU.
Thank you, Sasha. I appreciate you. You’re a unique person.
"look how unique we are!"
That is not a statement to be taken in jest... We are, at least, the Boomers certainly are. We know what the world looks from the perspective of unencumbered freedom... Freedom that few upon this planet have ever known. Unfortunately a perspective we may never know again.
You must be close enough to witness those atrocities, because we couldnt see that from New Zealand.
Just between me and you, I'm of the darkest opinion bc I've seen how they play us. Not Israel or Hamas but the puppet masters. I think you too may suspect but dare not say because it is too much to get your mind around. I'm just going to say that there are those who “just want to watch it burn”… Back during the Crusades murderous acts were perpetrated just to get war started. The NAZI committed unspeakable crimes… These are the facts as we now know. There were things that just don't fit… something that has become a marker of the present regimen. That is all I have to say at the present moment without evidence. Just saying because I like your style… You got a pair kiddo✌️
Bullshit; Hamas atrocities don’t justify Israel killing over 11,000 children.
You disappoint, Lib.
Your position is heartbreaking.
Not sure where you get the 11K figure.
Regardless, it is Hamas/Iran that is responsible for Palestinian deaths. That’s how they win minds of the western world. Palestinians are pawns. That is the disgusting truth.
WAPO NPR WHO UN for data among others. Actual numbers will be far higher since MSM has biases. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/gaza-rising-death-toll-civilians/
Israel has killed and maimed a far more disproportionate number than Hamas ever did. Please open your eyes to both sides of story. And again, yes kill as many Hamas as you want but cease immediately killing civilians.
EVERY one of those is a propaganda machine. None credible.
You know some of these in the younger generation have an infantile mindset. With their safe spaces, and knowledge of every conceivable pronoun but have not the grounding in history or mathematics (I know that new math is so complicated now no one can do simple problems in their head). But I insists upon everyone learn to use their special pronouns just encourages this insanity. If they were to go up to one of the Hamas leaders and try to teach them that ludicrous transgender enunciation they'd be looking for their head rolling on the ground.
"THANK YOU FOR GOING ALL IN ON THE ATROCITY PORN WITH ME"
Thank you 🙏
Well said. It’s war and Hamas needs destroyed. Many of the perpetrators on 10/7 were Gaza civilians, not all were Hamas militants, and paid highly by Hamas to carry out and record. When captured their videos were confiscated and they described their actions being orchestrated by Hamas. Gaza/Hamas/Palestinians have been repeatedly offered ceasefires and other offers for peace and have chosen war/hate over peace. They only want to kill Jews, not allow peace. They teach and train their children to hate and are taught how to kill and fake hostages. These are young children being taught this.
That's a whole lot of assertions. If only there was some evidence provided to support them.
Some of the videos were sent to Congress to view. Reps said it was hard to watch. Nightmares.
Yes, I understand that Mike Johnson said that he saw them.
What do we know about Mike Johnson? He seems like a trustworthy fellow, but he is affiliated with an organization well known for lying its ass off.
There are numerous videos to support.
So it is said.
Chana,
Are you 100% certain that the list of atrocities you presented actually occurred? All I have ever seen is talk. I mean, I would not want to see video of that horror, but at the same time, lack of specific proof troubles me. I am not convinced all of that happened, so I am curious how you became so convinced.
btw Your closing salvo, assuming your own moral superiority, is pretty disgusting. You should really check that.
Yes I am sure.
I know countless Israeli’s, relatives of Israelis and know the truth.
You accuse victims of fabrication?
It reminds me of when someone says something in the immediate answer is, “what is your source”. Your unwillingness to look at it, which I understand, gives you no knowledge.
Watch the footage you avoid.
And ask yourself why you choose to not want to believe it. I don’t want to believe it. I wish it never happened.
It’s unbelievable, but it happened.
Hamas says they will do it over and over again until they’re done. Do you not believe that either?
I’ve been avoiding this kind of conversation because it’s so outrageous.
You think I’m disgusting for an implication that you assume.
Perhaps you are projecting.
I spend way too much time on twitter, and I haven't seen any video depicting the barbarism. I did see people fleeing the parking lot, the paragliders on motorcycles, stuff like that. And I saw the very awful image of the dead german girl in the back of the truck. But that is about it.
I'm not claiming that you're wrong, or that you're lying. Not at all.
But I know that we get lied to a very awful lot by the media. And I'll be damned if I'll get sucked into the opinion maelstrom without being satisfied about the credibility of the info I am getting.
Plus, you misunderstood me, I'm not *avoiding* looking at the footage. I'm not clamoring to witness it, either, but it seems like at least some of that video would have shown up on twitter, they get everything else.
Why did the vaunted IDF fail their border security for hours on end?
What an idiot
Dude. We would probably agree on most things. Can you please try to provide any substantial comment other than this low-IQ insult thing that you seem trapped within?
Keep looking. I found it pretty easily.
link? no one seems to have one.
Are you kidding? David Pearl and James Foley beheaded on TV! It's what they do! I really want to name call you.
First, it was ISIS and not Hamas who allegedly beheaded Pearl and Foley. Second, there seems to be some credible evidence that ISIS is a creation of the Mossad and the CIA. And finally, there have been some questions as to whether or not these beheadings actually happened, especially in regards to Foley. His siblings certainly didn't seem too disturbed, assuming, of course, that the people in the interview really were his siblings.
https://lifttheveil.substack.com/p/the-fake-james-foley-beheading-video
It's best to take all this atrocity porn with at least one grain of salt.
Right, that was about ten years ago. I'm really more interested in current proof. But thanks for your input.
It’s all here, love.
https://web.telegram.org/k/#@southfirstresponders
No, Benj, it's disgusting that you are an October 7th denier.
Seriously?
An October-7th-Denier?
You should be ashamed of yourself... Even if 16 mindless zombies Liked your stereotypical Liberal tactic.
The "deniers" usually are right, and you look stupid for employing that low-info, low-energy, low-IQ term.
You all look very pro-Israeli on this site, so Benj is wasting his words.
I'm not anti-Israel.
I am anti-government-psyops.
hamas were filming it live on go pro cameras, and also on the cell phones of the people they were murdering. they were proud and sharing it with the world. It's so absurd this level of denial.
BTW, Benj, if Israel is genocidal, as many say, believe, accuse, etc, they could drop one bomb and kill everyone in Gaza., rather than send in ground troops risking their lives. (They are very bad at genocide.)
Instead, they try to save as many civilians as possible. And they want to get the hostages back, of course.
I’m old enough to remember when Iran was holding Americans hostage in the 70’s and every single day for over a year, the main stream media said “day, one day two, day three, day 300... that the hostages were being held. Now nobody seems to care about the Americans being held hostage. They’re not all Israeli’s. Maybe too many Jews for peoples comfort level--21% of Israelis are Arabs.
Hamas killed indiscriminately.
I also know parents of young men who went to Israel to help, joining the IDF as “lone soldiers” and volunteers cooking and bringing supplies l, Israelis snd Americans. They needed medical supplies desperately in the beginning bc a facility was burnt to the ground with medical supplies.
It’s very difficult to ID bodies of people that are burned alive and cut up also. That painstaking horrifying job is done by other human beings.
It’s traumatic for everyone.
On 10/8 the anti-Israel people were already blaming Israel before they responded at all.
Unimaginable
Just curious: when you speak on the topic, do you even hear yourself?
Does the fact that you justify violence, in ANY form, arouse or alert you?
Your type is so radicalized that you think those who maintain a neutral position and conviction of opposing ALL violence, regardless of its origins, 'deniers' and foes.
Up until a month ago, nearly every Conservative maintained an anti-war, America-First position, where they vehrently argued against financial and military aid to Ukraine, and demanded America-First policies and governing.
Literally overnight, many of them became staunch supporters of foreign aid to Israel, regardless of amount, military support, regardless of lives lost, and justification for genocide under the guise of 'defense'... despite their supposed pro-life stances and activism.
I bet you were one of them.
Does that contradiction and double standard not bother you?
Frankly, you don't have a leg to stand on against those who are at least maintaining principles and convictions.... And I wonder if you've ever considered why you're so staunchly pro-Israel.
I bet I can guess before you do.
Apparently, you took what I said personally.
I thank jpeople for exposing themselves for who they are.
Thank you.
1. I’m not a conservative.
2. I’m against war.
But
3. Every country has a right to defend itself.
Radicalized? How original.
Go ahead and guess.
You’re wrong about everything else.
4. I am a Zionist
5. I am a Jew
Well, #4 and #5 indicate that you're clinging to your bias like a southern boy clings to his guns and his Bible.
Israel is God’s sifting tool. The hearts and minds of every person is being exposed. I’m glad that Sasha has that sense that this cause of Israel’s response is rational. Benji asking if the atrocities really happened are just another swipe @ the delegitimization of Israel. Personally the dismay @ Israel’s response is just thinly veiled antisemitism, which in my opinion is the hatred of God, and that which He loves.
From the other side of the world, it looks like Israelis are going in on foot because the tunnels under Gaza cant be bombed from above, and need closer attention. Nothing to do with being humane to civilians.
Yup maybe, and if that offends you too bad. Israel’s enemies are going to pay for what they did. Unfortunately since Hamas uses human shields so will Gaza civilians. Strange how all the people shrieking about Gaza civilians??? What about the 1/2 million dead people in Syria’s civil war (of which 5,000 are said to be Palestinians), the 9,000 civilians in the war between Saudi Arabia and the Houthis in Yemen, of which 40% are estimated to be children, or the countless human rights violations committed in Arab/Islamic countries? If the civilians in Gaza are paramount to the world why didn’t their Arab brethren open up their borders? Because they are determined to use them as a propaganda prop. Give me a break already!
By the same token, can we say that the "thousands of Palestinians killed by indiscriminate Israeli bombing" occurred?
We DO know that Hamas accused Israel of bombing a hospital. And the media ran with that for days, arousing great anger at Israel. And then it found out it was not the hospital, it was a parking lot, and the rocket likely came from Hamas itself.
We also know Hamas hides in hospitals and schools deliberately trying to get civilians killed for propaganda purposes.
How do we know what's true there?
It's true. We don't know what happened - and I sure as hell am not claiming to know.
You know who are the scariest people of them all? The CONVINCED.
In this age of lies, and wars based on lies, and fat cats getting fatter from wars based on lies - anyone who has abandoned their skepticism, who believes completely on one side of the other... it truly is IDEOLOGY that we're up against.
The media lies, the governments lie.
This could really be about Israel vs Hamas. Maybe that's actually what happened, 7-hours-border-defense-lapse notwithstanding.
Or the battle MIGHT be MIC/globalists against ALL OF US.
I question ALL OF IT.
I've seen some of the videos, but I didn't need to see it to know the horror is true. The behavior hasn't changed from when it was the PLO. Same evil.
Hamas was created by Israel to divide support for the PLO.
Divide and conquer.
Look how cleverly they've got us divided now!
Sasha Stone has been nothing but awesome: "truth warriors unite!" Until now. Now she's inexplicably gone full ideologue, and has become unreasonable (I.e., cannot be reasoned with), calcified starkly into severe ideological-parameter thinking and pronouncement. And I, the unconvinced, am the enemy - of that, she is convinced.
They have split us.
They did it. It worked. Now we are perceiving each other as not allies. And that is a win for Gates, Schwab, etc.
Idealogue, unreasonable, calcified, the enemy. Are you describing yourself?
The point flew right past you, didn't it?
What support for the PLO? Did you ever hear or interact with anyone from the PLO, hear the vile stuff that poured forth?
Neither one of your replies addresses my point.
You have missed my point entirely. You're still in "israel v hamas" mindset. I am pointing to the globalists and the bankers as the root.
Try rereading what I said, slowly. See if you can get your head out of the way while you do it.
I am NOT calcified. I remain unconvinced.
Unfortunately, Benj, there is footage of it. Was I there? Of course not. But it’s pretty hard to deny it happened when they filmed it. It may not be on Twitter, or MSM, but it is there on the dark web.
link? anything?
I have seen the footage via closed whatsapp groups from first responders...its true.
link?
Let me guess....you totally bought the story that an Israeli rocket hit the Gaza hospital and killed 500 people? Without a shred of proof, based on Hamas' word alone? All of which has now been completely disproven.
It's those elusive shreds of proof that are making me question ALL of it.
What shred of proof do you have that this was not a total LIHOP? That the entire IDF was busy over at the West Bank, sorry folks, too busy over here to guard the Gaza border!
Listen up, media consumer: You NEED some people around you QUESTIONING stuff while you go barreling ahead with your mind made up about some bullshit that MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE (but will be used to start WWIII, just like EVERY OTHER LIE that started EVERY OTHER WAR).
THEY LIED BEFORE but they're not lying this time, right? Everything you think you know, is 100% true, is it?
OK then, WWIII let's go because TiaH already knows all there is to know and all that's left is the fighting.
Hamas really did those things. Look at the videos and images. While you are at it, look at a globe and you will see the Earth is not flat.
link?
Great response!
Great response if you like shit-simple analogies that require zero thought.
I remember when snappy comebacks used to be snappy.
Congress has seen videos of what occurred in Israel on October 7 and they were shocked and sickened regarding what Hamas did. It’s a war and Israel is right to defend itself and destroy Hamas.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4308864-johnson-describes-harrowing-video-of-hamas-atrocities-calls-for-senate-to-pass-israel-aid/
Don’t trust what politicians tell you they saw.
I’m always skeptical, but Hamas has a history of doing horrible things when they attack and they want Jews dead.
Hey Donna, fair point. Also, please consider this trick when looking at comments; change “Israel” to “Palestine” or “Jew” to “Arab” (or vice versa) and see if it doesn’t accurately represent the other side. Eg here is your posted w replacements. “I’m always skeptical, but Mossad has a history of doing horrible things when they attack and they want Palestinians dead.” Accurate no? We need a way out of this without killing thousands more on both sides.
Moron
fuck you.
Same to you!
Many of the estimated 1,200 people who died on Oct. 7 were apparently killed by Israeli forces.
Something like 10,000 Gazans, many children, have died so far and the number keeps rising.
So just by numbers Israel is responsible for far more deaths than Hamas. That's difficult to square with the subtext of many comments, which is that Israelis are civilized and Palestinians are savages.
Israel has the power to wipe Gaza from the map. The fact that they don't indicates they don't want to. They give every opportunity to Palestinians to get out of the line of fire before they attack. They try to get supplies to the hospital and to help Gazans. Palestinians are imprisoned by Hamas.
On the other hand we can tell by Hamas actions that were the shoe on the other foot they would kill every Jew possible bar none, as seen on Oct 7. And with their indiscriminate rocket fire. That's why Israelis are civilized and Hamas are barbarians.
It’s about Hamas, not Palestinians, John.
The slogan should be “free Palestine… from Hamas”
If anybody cares about the Palestinian people, they would know who is opressing them.
Chana, once he says that it is now apparent that the IDF were the ones who killed their own people , don't bother replying to people like that.
BLOCKED.
I wouldnt want to be a Palestinian at your place.
I can give credence to that. And honestly, if I had to choose, I'll pick Israel.
But I am just so fucking sick of being lied to.
AND IT STILL MAKES ZERO SENSE THAT THE BORDER DEFENSES OF THE VAUNTED IDF FAILED FOR HOURS AND HOURS.
Yeah, isn't it curious how most don't recognize media lies and war propaganda anymore?
It's like war-propaganda ceases to exist now that a conflict involves Israel!
Their emotions couldn't possibly be used against them -- to aid supporting an otherwise immoral battle between TWO guilty parties.
Oh, heavens no!
Israel would never lie like they did regarding the USS Liberty or pre-9/11.
I mean, why would they lie? I know they lied last time, and the time before that, but this time it's dIfFeReNt 😵💫😵
I’m sick of being lied to also, believe me. Sick to death.
And it does make no sense that the border failed for hours.
That doesn’t excuse massacring people.
I agree, it does not. Nothing excuses that.
You and I are not enemies.
Thank you for that small bit of common ground. Apparently we're making better headway on peace talks than Hamas & Israel.
You are being forced to take sides based on minimal certainty and lots of hearsay. This isnt exactly a balanced forum.
I dare you to talk to a native-born Palestinian, Jordanian, or Egyptian and then rationalize who's oppressing them over there.
You know less than you think you do.... But I'll give you points for attempted balance and nuance.
I have a close colleague who is an Egyptian Christian. In fact, I got him the job. His family left Egypt because it wasn’t good for Christians in Egypt anymore.
My ex-husband was very good friends with a Jordanian, whose father decided they were “Palestinians”. He hated Jews. But his son didn’t.
I’ve had students who are Syrian refugees, who would have preferred to stay in Syria.
Have you noticed Jordan and Egypt do not take any Palestinian refugees? They didn’t right from the start. Nor will any other surrounding country.
I actually know many people from the Middle East that come to America for various reasons.
Not sure what to take away from your comment here, other than the implication that a certain set of Arabs are born antisemites.
That is called war. I think too many men play computer war and have limited connection with reality. I haven't read anyone here calling the Gazans savages, but Hamas is barbaric. Did you expect the IDF to reach a number goal of dead Gazans to match the tortured and murdered Israelis and then call a ceasefire?
Ditto what you said. It's disheartening that so many people can't discern the difference.
It's disheartening that so many people who would like to "discern the difference" are unable to do so, due to obfuscation and sensationalization.
Bullshit; Hamas atrocities don’t justify Israel killing over 11,000 children.
Sasha is right on this one, both in her opinion and in posting divergent views anyway. What is happening in Gaza is tragic, and I can understand people wanting it to stop, as I do, but why doesn’t the world demand that Hamas come out from their tunnels underneath hospitals and schools and civilian infracture and surrender and stop the war crime of hiding behind women and children? The question is does Israel have the right to defend its citizens against an implacable enemy who has the support of powerful regional allies and has sworn they will do another slaughter again and again,) or does hiding your HQ and weapons and rockets behind your civilians mean you get to win? Should that be a war strategy for all armies, or just those fighting Israelis?
As for Israelis’ actually wanting to kill as many civilians as possible?—it goes against all the evidence that any fair minded person can observe.
I recommend refraining news consumption for a while.
It's no good for your mind -- as you attempt to rationalize ANY of it.
You won't find truth or answers within war-propaganda.
It exists on both sides, by the by.
Most sane comment if the entire thread and article!
“Whatever it was that happened that day”???
You seem to be befuddled, so I’ll clarify:
What happened that day was a manifestation of pure barbarism.
or more precisely, pure evil
Aye, the reports we are being fed appear to tell the story of a manifestation of pure barbarism.
Hamas fighters recorded their hideous acts of terror on Gopros, the footage released immediately on social media.
Hamas supporters proclaimed glory to their martyrs of the resistance. They even projected the words on university buildings. Hamas leaders living comfortably in Qatar assure us that this is only the beginning of their resistance. It seems only Western apologists are casting doubt. The perpetrators themselves are taking credit.
No it's not. They were attacked in barbaric fashion so they have to eliminate the threat. That's how any State would respond. Acting as if they are supposed to count up the dead and say 'ok let's now kill that many Palestinians' is perverse and not serious.
The Germans killed about 40,000 British civilians with their bombing and another 10,000 with the V-weapons. Some was collateral damage and some was deliberate terror bombing to try to crack civilian morale. The Allied combined bomber offensive killed about 435,000 Germans (plus substantial numbers of French and Belgians). The American portion of this was largely collateral damage due to the huge overestimate of the accuracy of the bombing. The British portion was mostly explicit terror bombing to crack civilian morale and disrupt the work force.
Obviously the Allies didn't stop when they had killed 50,000 civilians. They were trying to win the war. The question of proportionality is the relationship between the ends desired and the means employed, not a comparative body count. This is what international law actually says about proportionality. The air war obviously contributed to winning the war both in terms of damaged production and resources diverted from the ground war. The question of whether it contributed enough to justify the casualties is still controversial.
Applying this to the current war, the question needs to be is the goal of eliminating Hamas and the likelihood of doing so worth the casualties. It is not comparative body counts.
Exactly, well put. I agree completely. And making it about body count only vindicates Hamas strategy of hiding behind civilians.
John you have your head in the sand. Bari Weiss of the free press just gave a speech to the federalist society and if you look you will find it. She nailed it and if your not of the same mind set you have just put yourself into the same camp of the everyday German in the 1930-1940’s that accepted and even cheered Adolf on.
The pro-Israel comments are increasingly unhinged.
That's because these commenters are trying to defend the indefensible. It's a lost cause.
Let 'em.
They're only revealing themselves as the unprincipled and unconvicted hacks and mindless zombies they've always been.
They just better-hid it before because issues didn't involve their precious Israel.
Hopefully it's just a matter of time before they come to their senses and realize they've been carefully conditioned to love their enemies and oppressors -- or how they've seemingly double standards about foreign aid, America First policies, and unnecessary death of innocents amidst their supposed pro-life activism.
If not, well, no love lost -- I don't care much for people who lack self-awareness to understand how their emotions are being used against them, especially after they've spent 7 years criticizing the other side of falling victim to the same.
https://outlook.live.com/mail/inbox/itemId/AQMkADAwATE0OTcwLTVhYjctNTRmZS0wMAItMDAKAEYAAAPxnWKCj8NCQ5buP%2FTy2JUcBwB1%2Fw25CSzlSpWldWy3ilpvAAACAQwAAAB1%2Fw25CSzlSpWldWy3ilpvAAchKH7nAAAA
Why Everything You Know About World War II Is Wrong
https://www.unz.com/runz/why-everything-you-know-about-world-war-ii-is-wrong/
It seems like common sense that in 2023, given all the media manipulation of facts and information surrounding some of the biggest events in modern time that we've witnessed and experienced -- the literal rewriting of history in present real-time -- that this isn't a new phenomenon.
We're supposed to believe that it's easier to fool an entire international populous in an age of technology, more so than it was during a time of limited print, radio, and television reporting?
I know letting go of long-held beliefs proves difficult and burdensome to most... But, again, given everything we've witnessed the past decade, it shouldn't be deemed improbable, but extremely likely.
It goes without saying, if more understood their history, they wouldn't be tirelessly involving themselves in this hyper-polarized event.
Great find.
Sadly no.
Those Palestinian deaths are entirely blood on Hamas' hands, not Israel's. Hamas INTENTIONALLY and purposefully uses its citizens as human shields and uses the deaths of its citizens to boost it's anti-Israel propaganda. The more dead Palestinians, the better is their motto. "Whatever it was that happened that day" tells me all I need to know about your desire to find out the truth of what actually did happen that day. Liberals bury their heads in the sand about anything that doesn't fit their narrative and then scream about the inequity of it all. Give me freakin' break!
If you think everyone disagreeing with you is a "liberal", you're way off base.
It could end tomorrow if the Hamas members would surrender and face justice for their war crimes. As an FYI, Israel killing civilians is not necessarily a war crime. Even if children are killed, it is not a war crime unless there was no military target that was being attacked at the time. So if Israel parachuted into a Palestinian concert where there were no fighters and killed the people and children and left, that would be a war crime. Accidents in the prosecution of legitimate targets are not war crimes. If they were, then our government was guilty of a war crime when they bombed the guy in Afghanistan who was ferrying water. War is ugly and should be avoided because ugly things are very common, and in fact the point of war. Since warfare is conducted by humans against humans, there will always be accidents.
Israel isn't actually fighting Hamas. The Hamas forces are underground.
Israel is killing defenseless civilians. That's indefensible.
Preposterous. They are just sitting in holes in the ground. Really?
Yes.
Where are the bodies of Hamas soldiers killed by Israel?
It is illegal to show the remains of those killed in battle on the part of the Army (it is essentially parading "trophies"). Ask Hamas.
You didn't answer my question.
"Proportionality" in war is "blind spot" propaganda
What is proportional ito civilian rape, torture and beheading? Proportionality in war is suicide.
"War" is when two (or more) ARMIES clash.
As in "War" on poverty? Idiotic reply to my comment. Google the definition. Israel is at war with Hamas.
If Israel killed every Palestinian, it would not be out of proportion.
And you are aligned with the Marxists, and therefore the enemy for saying otherwise.
🤫 ... or share their fate.
Oof.
There goes that false dichotomy again!
And I just love how you're justifying violence whilst fingering another guy for an enemy.
No one cares what you love. No one cares what you think.
You've gone full jackass.
Never go full jackass.
Die
that's just like, your opinion, man.
So you’re saying you don’t understand the genocidal, Islamic mindset. Perhaps you’re too much of a ethnocentric, western ignoramus? 🤔
I found this SubStack article by Scott Ritter pretty good myself. Put the event(s) on Oct 7th & reaction(s) to it in its legitimate perspective.
https://www.scottritterextra.com/p/the-october-7-hamas-assault-on-israel?lli=1
Thanks. I like Ritter though he sometimes gets carried away.
It's not about Israel. I'm anti war. BUT when it comes to raping women, dragging them thru streets, cutting babies out of women & laughing about it, putting babies in ovens, there's a difference. It’s up there w Manson murders. If you are not Muslim, then you're at war whether you like it or not. It's Islam stupid.
Bernie Sanders is on record accusing Netanyahu's government of indiscriminate bombings of refugee camps, hospitals and even ambulances. Amnesty International has similar witness reports, and Dr Norman Finkelstein called such actions crimes against humanity.
(Sanders on YouTube channel Middle East Eye: "Stop the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people.")
Show me how they're wrong.
It's pretty funny how we each accuse each other of having blind spots. Pull the log out of your own eye first.
And if they Chopped your kids heads off and burned them you would do it different? Your lacking all sense.
In response to a Glenn Greenwald request for feedback, I wrote the comment below. Thank you Sasha for your Substack.
@ggreenwald
Your analysis of the geopolitical forces at play in US and international events and crises is masterful. However, I sense a double standard applies to some of the moral / ethical questions underlying these events and crises. You rightly expose and emphasise, for example, US government lies and deceit surrounding episodes such as those involving Edward Snowden or the Twitter Files. As well as neocon corruption surrounding continued US military assistance to Ukraine, absent compassion for the useless loss of life for no strategic gain. In contrast, I wonder what ethical and moral standards would you assign to the deliberate Hamas slaughter of women, children and babies? How should this figure into the geopolitical calculus of Israels response in terms of the nature of the enemy they confront? How does a civilised state confront and deal with jihadist terrorists screaming "Allahu Akbar" as they butcher civilians and call on Gods help to eradicate Israel?
I’ve not heard Glenn praising Hamas, but I have heard him condemn their brutality in the most unequivocal terms.
On the other hand, what I have heard Glenn talk a lot about are two issues; 1) the nature and intensity of the IDF response and the effect it is having on the civilian population of Gaza, and 2) the need to understand the “Palestinian question” vis a vis its genesis and the necessity of finding a lasting solution that addressed the needs of both sides.
I don’t see any moral ambivalence in condemning Hamas while at the same time lamenting the loss of innocent lives and understanding the need for a realistic solution that addresses the needs of both sides.
Thanks JT, I agree with your assessment re Glenn's comments. However, I sense Glenn has a moral blind spot in terms of how Israel deals with Hamas, a terrorist Jihadist group who's objective is the extermination of Jews and the destruction of Israel. Hamas indiscriminately fires rockets into Israel to inflict whatever damage it can. It conducts mindless atrocities on defenceless civilians. How could Israel find a lasting solution that addresses the needs of Hamas?
While I cannot speak for Glenn, I suspect he feels it’s important not to conflate Hamas with those residents of Gaza who are innocent.
Thank you.
I'm still unclear about what exactly happened on Oct 7th. How are you so clear? We know there were atrocities committed by the invading forces. There were approximately 1200-1400 people killed, including IDF soldiers. But there are also Israeli witnesses who claim the IDF killed its own people. What is certain is that in Gaza, tens of thousands of innocent, helpless people, including THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, are being bombed by Israel using our money.
Why do so many American cheerleaders for this bombing campaign expect people like me to focus on the tragic but unclear incident that happened on Oct 7th, and ignore the outright genocide happening in Gaza as we speak? I'm blown away by the gall of that expectation or insistence. I'm insulted by it. I'm deeply troubled by it.
I agree. And there’s hardly any mention of the atrocious crimes the IDF has committed against Palestinians the past 20 years. Not giving Hamas a pass at all, they’re terrorists for sure, but this didn’t start on 10/7.
How can you be so certain about what is happening in Gaza? I've heard it's still very unclear and there's a film studio where Hamas propaganda films are being made and the IDF isn't even in Gaza.
Thing is, you have reiterated the "atrocity porn" that we have all heard about via mainscream media, and it seems to be the basis for your strong opinions.
Yet they lie about shit like this all the time. Remember at the beginning of the Ukraine conflict, the TV showed us a child's stuffed animal with blood on it. My physician friend called me on the phone, distressed and upset about it: "they showed the child's toy with blood on it", and I said, "yes, they *showed* you that - they showed you what they want you to see." She stopped crying.
They lied about Iraq, Vietnam, Ukraine etc.
Can we be discerning about whether we are being lied to about Israel?
I read that 4 out of 5 Israelis think the net & yahoo adminstration knowingly did not prevent or intercept the 10/7 invasion. Some reports even suggest that IDF was involved in the attack.
Cui bono - who benefits from the benefit of the doubt?
Yes people need to dig deeper on this...
Everybody seems so sure that they know exactly what happened on October 7 and what has been happening since. However, all we are seeing is propaganda from both sides. People shouldn't be so sure of themselves.
Video of Gaza being turned into rubble is not propaganda and the claim that it’s justified to destroy Hamas is absurd.
I get tired of the war hawks that seek to involve our young adults in endless and morally murky wars that we never voted for. Lots of propaganda on both sides of the equation, with lots of dead civilians caught in the middle.
Speaking of absurd., looked in a mirror lately?
Speaking of absurd, drop any comments today?
Obviously I look in the mirror every day. An absurd thing to say.
Sasha, I agree with you 100%. I don’t think the US should involve itself and I feel badly for innocents on in both the Israeli & Gaza side. But I can’t help but feel like anti Semitism motivates a lot if the criticism against Israel’s response. They’re damned if they do, damned if they don’t.
“But I can’t help but feel like anti Semitism motivates a lot if the criticism against Israel’s response.”
Probably so but that doesn’t mean there’s nothing wrong with Israel’s response.
["but I can’t help but feel like *other people's racism* motivates a lot of the criticism of Israel's indiscriminate civilian-bombing campaign"]
PLEASE tell us all, finally and for good, how does one oppose decisions by Israel WITHOUT some PC warrior yelling "ANTISEMITISM!"?
I’m hardly a PC warrior. I personally observed people cheering the rapes and murders before the Israeli government launched its attack. It’s not the Israeli government they hate, nor is it the religion they hate-- it’s the Jewish people themselves.
Jay, where were you when you observed these people cheering? Where were those who cheered? Did you observe them in real life, or from a media source? How many do you estimate that you witnessed cheering?
I didn't see any of that so I am interested in how you became so convinced.
An old colleague on social media. And saw all the ‘likes’ to his post. Again, days before Israel’s response.
Killing over 11,000 civilians in three weeks of indiscriminate bombing won’t help that image.
to me October 7th seems quite suspicious, a possible Israeli false flag. How did the supposedly state of the art Israeli border security systems fail so massively? problem, reaction, solution anyone? Why did it take so many hours for the IDF to come to the scene of the massacre? very weird indeed..........
Check my post right below here from Quillette about how Israeli troops had been redeployed to the West Bank to help Israeli settlers take Palestinian land.
ALL of the troops deployed to the West Bank on THAT particular day.
Just like NORAD was doing "training" on 9/11 that took them out of commission for the duration of the airliner attacks.
Just like no one sounded the sirens on Maui.
Just like no policeman would go into the school in Uvalde.
Etc.
It does seem that all the troops had been removed from the border but probably not just on that particular day. A good Quillette article about Gaza which says Israelis on the border were warned by friends in Gaza that an attack was coming. They contacted the IDF about this and were told not to worry about it. This though is something to consider for those who say the Palestinians are terrorists and need to be destroyed.
“Israelis in the border Kibbutzim received messages from acquaintances in Gaza that an attack was imminent and asked the IDF for advice. The IDF responded with reassuring messages and told them not to cancel any planned events (including the music festival mentioned above). The IDF chief of staff Herzi Halevy and the head of Shin Bet both warned Hamas against any action, apparently on the basis of existing intelligence. Furthermore, it now transpires that the Israeli leadership received unambiguous—though not specific—warnings from Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and the US regarding preparations by Hamas to launch a massive attack.”
The Gazan Gordian Knot.
Quillette. Oct 13, 2023
https://quillette.com/2023/10/13/the-gazan-gordian-knot/
This seems to confirm that the tragedy was allowed to happen on purpose.
It does. The attack and now the response are both dreadful disasters that should have never happened. The whole disastrous mess is just awful.
thanks Seva I'll check it out.
Check my post above and the link therein: https://rumble.com/v3pr62s-must-see-the-mystery-of-israel-solved.html
I understand the reticence about Candace Owens. I'm not sure what to think of her myself.
What is far worse is October 7th denial. I'm shocked at a few of the comments.
I do not believe there is any denial of October 7 any more than there is no denying September 11 occurred. It's the how and why people are baffled by.
No one denies October 7th. What many deny is that this gives Israel the right to pound Gaza into rubble along with the people living there.
No, there is October 7th denial going on. Look at more of the comments.
Why I don't get is the "Oct-7th-acceptance-of-govt-and-media-narrative-that-has-unwittingly-turned-me-into-a-warhawk" going on in his thread.
Does that justify Israel destroying Gaza? Much of the world considers this genocide. Many believe it doesn’t matter what much of the world thinks but it most surely does.
Yes. The "Gazans", aka Hamas constituents, have stated that they are proud of what they did on 10/7 and that they will continue until all the Jewish people are dead.... then they come for the "Great Satan", America. That is their stated goal..... that is why they need to be completely eradicated.
Seva, I usually read your comments and agree with much. I am super disappointed.
“that is why they need to be completely eradicated.”
Elon Musk. “For every Hamas member that you kill, how many did you create?” (2 min)
Islam Channel. Nov 12, 2023
https://youtu.be/NYsEk-St2x4?si=M3Uq329PEAxsXYOS
You make a point. That whole Muslim "death to America" thing is quite scary, and it is probably in our best interests to align with Israel.
However.
I deeply resent being lied to.
And I refuse to "align" with anything until I can be reasonably certain I'm not being psyopped.
Dresden.
Dresden shouldn’t have happened but at that time much of the world deeply hated Germany and had no sympathy for the civilians killed there. Big difference now when much of the world hates Israel and considers this genocide.
If Dresden wouldn't have happened..chances are you would be speaking German now.
And you are right...its the hatred for Israel that is driving peoples opinions more than sympathy for the Palestinians..
Please don't insult yourself and everyone else here by using the "denier" trope.
It's called a "thought-terminating cliche", and substackers don't use that.
We have standards around here.
"Shocked, I say!!"
Candace's wanting to keep the United States out of yet another foreign war is absolutely spot-on. One can be pained by the Hamas terrorist attacks and the loss of innocent Israeli lives, and one can hope that Israel destroys Hamas (which Israel funded. See https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4295880-israels-chickens-come-home-to-roost/) without wanting the United States involved on either side. One can do this while also lamenting civilian Palestinian casualties and the treatment of Palestinians before this recent war. One can lament those casualties and the treatment of Palestinians without pushing for the eradication of Israel, too. One can support Israel's right of self-defense while also being angered by AIPAC's inordinate influence on the United States Congress. Amazing, I know. But it's all true.
She's pretending that's her take but it isn't. Not if you follow her on Twitter, she is no different from the Harvard brats when it comes to this topic. She's pivoting now to pretend it's about America first, it might work on those who do t know her. But not me. I have been following her insanity for weeks now.
Pretending?
What do you suppose is her true motive, then, as she's been a vocal Zionist for as long as she's been in the public spotlight, and your takeaway doesn't seem to accurately reflect her long-held position.
Is it really beyond the realm of possibility that, even given her pro-Israel stance, she's critical of the recent event, for good reason?
I think you've become so radicalized and passionate about this controversial topic that you can't, and won't, even see the forest through the trees.
Are there specific tweets you have in mind?
Why would you not want to put this in your substack? Candance explained herself very well. She’s definitely pro-Israel but saddened to see children, any child, killed even when Hamas uses as a shield. This interview made me like her even more and I already admired her candor, her opinions, her truthfulness, and her determination.
I’ve only watched a quarter of it so far but I see nothing wrong with what she’s saying. She says she’s basically America first as are Tucker, Trump, Vivek and Glenn Greenwald. I see nothing terrible about that.
I understand where you are coming from Sasha. This is not a war over territory. Israel is fighting to remain alive.
Here’s is an article I believe shines a bright light on why we are where are today:
https://www.city-journal.org/article/the-anti-liberal-crusade
I do not like the smell of the 10/7 narrative.
Those border defenses were stood down intentionally.
Please folks, we need to look at this. Every other "opinion" about 10/7 should be predicated on understanding whether this was MIHOP/LIHOP.
I agree.
I was surprised at the comments Candace has made, especially since Ben has been so affected and they are suppose to be friends. Her comments have actually made me think less of her. I think Ben’s comments on her post go way deeper than what was said on X.
Thanks for posting Sasha!
Her comments were reasonable and clear. I came away even more impressed with her.
Same.
wow, how in the world can you come away with that when all she did was in all graciousness deflect from Ben and compliment what he has built? I thought she was more than gracious with her comments.
I also thought that she resisted Tucker’s invitation to criticize Ben.
Sherri, at least here we will not accuse you of racism for criticizing Owens. 😂
I think it is very difficult for many to separate emotional attachment to Israel from objective critical thinking. That’s understandable: I had a hard time thinking of the IRA as terrorists when M16 and Brit paras were doing their killing.
Just about everything the news reported on IRA was a lie.
So point to one thing in this interview that would be controversial in a sane world?
I don't always agree with Candace Owens, but she has been consistent and so have I. If children are valuable and have a right to life, then *all* children are valuable and have a right to life. Hamas has no right to take the life of innocent Israeli children, and the Israeli government has no right to take the lives of innocent Palestinian children. It doesn't matter who is hiding behind them. *We don't kill children.* And any group that's willing to drop bombs on areas where they know there are children is no better than the person that would shot a child in its bed or put it in the oven (if that even happened--it sounds a lot like the "beheading babies" story, so I'm going to remain dubious unless it comes from an unassailable source).
If it's America first and you are of the opinion that we need to focus on our own problems, then that is true when it involves Ukraine, it's true when it involves China, and it is *just as true* when it involves Israel. We can feel for them and still say we're not going to fund your war, especially if you're going to bomb children.
Finally, I find the strangest twist of this whole thing, which I wish were a surprise to me, but it's not, the idea that people who don't trust this government to tell the truth (and you shouldn't), don't trust Hamas to tell the truth (why would you? They're terrorists.), and don't trust Palestinians, even those who aren't part of Hamas, to tell the truth will look at you and say you absolutely must take as gospel every world out of the Israeli government's mouth. What the ever loving . . . the Israeli government is made up of human beings just like any government. That means their willingness to lie knows no bounds. Their willingness to betray their own people knows no bounds. Why suddenly do some people forget that?
Dude! (in Chris Farley voice:) Remember that time when that girl spoke in front of US Congress about the incineration of babies in Iraq (or something atrocious like that) - and then it turns out, she was lying, she was revealed to be the daughter of a diplomat or something, and the lies were told to manufacture consent for our invasion of Iraq?
I'm glad if you do. Because apparently Sasha Stone can't remember, and precious few others in this wild comments thread can remember, either.
THEY WILL TELL YOU ANYTHING to get your consent.
DO NOT CONSENT.
Terrorism is Terrorism. No matter who does it. Please look into how Sharon and Netanyahu helped build Hammas to weaken the PLO and Yassar Arafat. It all has its roots in British intelligence operations to keep wars going in the region to benefit the controllers of the oil.
Trump's Abraham Accords are the method needed now to corral the unleashed insanity on both sides.
Check out larouchepac.com
Pbbowen@sbcglobal.net
Bingo. Not enough people here, including Sasha, are looking into the history leading up to this latest conflict. As I said in a comment above, this “war” didn’t start on 10/7.
There is a difference between purposely going after innocent people, babies and burning and beheading them. That is HAMAS. Israelis attack sites the terrorists use as human shields and prevent their own people and children from leaving under a warning first given and time is allotted for innocents to leave. They don't. So blame the Hamas terrorists, NOT the Israelis and call this what it is. It is total BS from people who dont even know the history there. War is hell, and Israel did not start it. The Phillistines have been warring with israel in Judea since the beginning of history. Judea is land of the Jews. Arabs want to wipe them off the face of the earth. They have no regard for life whatsoever, unlike the Israelis who give time and notice to evacuate.
TItus, I have heard that argument and I agree that Hammas, which Netanyahu helped to become powerful to undermine the PLO and Yassar Arafat, should be destroyed. The government of Netanyahu's coalition is no more incapable of lies than any other, so be careful of what you wish for. His argument could be used to say " since Hammas is underground in tunnels, anyone living on the surface is a human shield to keep Israel from bombing the tunnels - which can't be reached by the bombs (unless they are nuclear). Anyway you get the gist of my thinking.
Ultimately it is only the economic development of the whole region, emphatically including the Palestinians in a 2 state solution, that can solve the problem. Trump had the Arab nations moving in that direction with the help of his son-in-law Jerad Kushner. And BIbi was very reluctantly going along as well. We, the United States, can be the arbiter. It's called leadership, of which the collective in the White House know nothing.